Unconscious and Conscious

[♀♥Lady Urania♥♀]

I was looking at the article Kris posted, I was quite stunned by the statement the author had been quoted. I guess it is why he isnt one of the ones who won the Nobel Peace Prize:

http://www.physorg.com/news149345120.html

"Contrary to Kahnneman and Tversky's research, Alex Pouget, associate professor of brain and cognitive sciences at the University of Rochester, has shown that people do indeed make optimal decisions—but only when their unconscious brain makes the choice.

"A lot of the early work in this field was on conscious decision making, but most of the decisions you make aren't based on conscious reasoning," says Pouget. "You don't consciously decide to stop at a red light or steer around an obstacle in the road. Once we started looking at the decisions our brains make without our knowledge, we found that they almost always reach the right decision, given the information they had to work with."

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This is an incredibly huge misunderstanding regarding consciousness and unconsciousness. Its very easily demonstrated. The unconscious is an area of mind we are not 'conscious' of.

Unaware.

The subconscious (which some are in debate but it is the area of shadow realm where we have more access to but not always), is where there is quite a bit, stored. Anyway, when we stop at a red light it is a conscious decision. If I spoke to most folks who learned the road (and even children) they will tell you red light means red, green means go, yellow means yield, when driving on the roads around the way. It is called common knowledge and thus we are conscious of it. The light signals us, and our brain, stop/yield/whatever. And it is in the realm of consciusness. The deal however is, because we would be flooded by the contents of mind if it were all front and center, to have all contents conscious 'at once,' its knowledge, with repeated practice which becomes available and 'remembered' cause it is a part of our memory, and we do what we do.

But it is hardly an 'unconscious' move. We are completely aware in this act, we are driving. We are aware when we stop.

The 'unconscious' however, if anyone's ever drifted a bit in a meditative state knows this. For example, cause I do meditate, and enjoy driving, sometimes driving would be like a meditation. I can recall two incidents very clearly no internal dialogue, just driving on the freeway at night, clear roads and it was about five exits up I realized 'hey, I was driving and supposed to get off at this-and-that exit, whoa." Then I would become say fully 'conscious,' out of said driving meditative state and turn around get off my usual exit. Such a move to keep driving on the freeway in a state, clearly with an exit in mind and keep going - is an example of the unconscious move. Im aware im driving but... thats about it LOL

Anyway, stopping at a red light, hes mistaking things we've practiced and become automatic responses - but they are still conscious responses. Its someone who say goes through a red light without paying attention - who is acting from the unconscious.

Speaking of unconscious decisions - drunk drivers, they get drunk and dull their conscious totally. Are slowed down, dont obey the laws of the road, run a red light and kill somebody. It is because alcohol is a depressant and shuts down the conscious, and the unconscious 'acts' clearly demonstrated by the 'case of dr jeckyll and mister hyde.' Certainly not saying unconscious is 'bad,' not at all - its a vast mystery. But nothing mysterious about red light and stopping, being a conscious move and decision.

So No Nobel Peace Prize for Alex Pouget, and a thumbs down from me per reading his article. Man doesnt know what the hell he's speaking about.

[♀♥Lady Urania♥♀]

Another thing too for some food for thought, Pavlov and his tests with the dog (who of course has a different brain than we do, but a dog is very instinctual), conditioning the dog to salivate when he hears a bell, vs say, smells food. The dog was a dog, so probably not totally aware why he would salivate to a bell. But something signaled his brain the bell sound = food.

When we stop at a red light, we are fully aware we were taught to stop. We may even be able to recall our class in which we learned it. And from practicing this act every day, it becomes pretty automatic but it is at the level of consciousness, in memory, a memory we are aware of which is easily retrievable.

When spoken of memories and the "unconscious," the unconscious has to do, partly with "repressed" memories. An unconscious decision say could be, one 'marries their father' in the likeness of some man who maybe not good for them, but was 'unaware' there was some attachment and projections with. Or one who sees hemp, but mind tricked them and it 'appeared' like a snake, and they jumped. Because part of a human's nature to survive, we do have some unconscious 'forms' within is which may cause fear and to jump. I remember when my son was a baby and sitting up, he saw a cricket on the floor and began making this little scaredy sound. Why was he afraid of a cricket on the ground when he'd never seen a cricket? Where did this fear come from? I cannot say but for all I know his little mind was saying 'fear' cause his instinct thought it could be a 'scorpion' with a stinger, and became afraid. So we do have unconscious, primal instincts which can affect. A baby who has never been taught to 'fear' a cricket fears it crawling on the floor toward him, is reacting in fear to 'something,' but its a mystery, and really, validates there 'must be' an unconscious and primal instinct within. Because per mind there must be an origin of the fear. We can of course as parents, teach children about fearing and not fear. "Dont be afraid its a cricket, look," and pick it up. "hes small, hed be more afraid of you if anything."

Anyway, just another thought, further example. "Repressed" memories, or things we may be unaware of which are part of our primal nature - thats the unconscious.

[songbird]

Yes, it really is incredible the kind of stuff we come here with.  Be it from past life learned behaviours and attitudes, things picked up in utero and then the stuff we've collected throughout our lives from parents, teachers, masters etc etc, Really when it comes time to strip down and get to the real me, there's a lot to be discarded.


Unaware vs becoming aware of
that really is the ticket in my view.

[daphne]

I was looking at the article Kris posted, I was quite stunned by the statement the author had been quoted. I guess it is why he isnt one of the ones who won the Nobel Peace Prize:

http://www.physorg.com/news149345120.html

"Contrary to Kahnneman and Tversky's research, Alex Pouget, associate professor of brain and cognitive sciences at the University of Rochester, has shown that people do indeed make optimal decisions—but only when their unconscious brain makes the choice.

"A lot of the early work in this field was on conscious decision making, but most of the decisions you make aren't based on conscious reasoning," says Pouget. "You don't consciously decide to stop at a red light or steer around an obstacle in the road. Once we started looking at the decisions our brains make without our knowledge, we found that they almost always reach the right decision, given the information they had to work with."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is an incredibly huge misunderstanding regarding consciousness and unconsciousness. Its very easily demonstrated. The unconscious is an area of mind we are not 'conscious' of.

I read that too and wondered...  Sometimes I notice that people use the terms interchangeably, like consciousness and awareness or as the term for the unconscious part of our mind - that which we are not conscious of. Also.. there is 'the' unconscious, and 'to be' unconscious, sometimes meaning totally 'out' and other times just not being aware. Conscious as a noun and conscious as a verb too. I must admit that often it all confuses me. The example of the red light is also confusing, because while I have at times not made a conscious decision to actually stop there and then, the decision is made by being aware of the red light. I know to stop at one. Is that a conscious decision or not?

Nobel prize not withstanding, I do think that many, even in the same sciences, use the term differently. Makes it difficult for someone, like me for eg, who does not know what meaning they may be attributing to it. Kind of like the meanings around 'ego' too.

[Mr Truth]

"Contrary to Kahnneman and Tversky's research, Alex Pouget, associate professor of brain and cognitive sciences at the University of Rochester, has shown that people do indeed make optimal decisions—but only when their unconscious brain makes the choice.

"A lot of the early work in this field was on conscious decision making, but most of the decisions you make aren't based on conscious reasoning," says Pouget. "You don't consciously decide to stop at a red light or steer around an obstacle in the road. Once we started looking at the decisions our brains make without our knowledge, we found that they almost always reach the right decision, given the information they had to work with."

What Pouget is saying that the decisions we make spontaneously without conscious thought are always right. What he is reffering to is decision, which do not involve conscious thinking.


What he is reffering to is spontaneous vs rational thinking.



You may call this spontaniey conscious or unconscious that doesn't matter so much and btw one can be conscious of the unconscious and how it inluences us, this requires a lot of alertness after all how the mind works is with feeded information aquired through learning, observing and conditioning. Whatever of this information can be observed or is observable is conscious. So unonscious can beome conscious but if all of this information was to become conscious it would really make life impossible as it would kill one's spontanity with so much awareness and information. Due to hypervigilance as a ptsd symptom and being in my head too much i have developed very hightened alertness, this is very annoying and painful, i can very often be aware of even unconscious information behind my conscious moves, can track down beleifs and perception from thier origin, Basically i can observe too much. But this only kills spontaniety and one is not supposed to be so conscious and vigilant to naturally. It had made my life hell.

To my mind awareness is different from conscious and unconscious mind. One can be aware of both. One can even be unaware of the conscious mind. SO awareness is consciousness but different from conscious mind.A meditative state may be a state of superconsciousness but its a thoughtless state, its not a unconscious state but we are not using our conscious/ analytical mind. One is focussed on one thing and eventually one is not conscious of his consciousness, that is spontaniety,

So stopping on a red light is a spontaneous decision while planning an itinerary is a conscious decision according to pouget.  WHile stopping on a red light one doesn't have to think. What pouget calls conscious is basically thinking. WHen we are not thinking and working intutively we almost make right decisions because these are decisions based on sensing not thinking,

Meditation is an intutive experience. In intutive e xpereinces technical details are missed, there is a feeling of truth but not knowledge of truth. Knowledge of truth requires rational mind and studying.

Even intutive expereinces  can be explained with a sufficient technical vocubalary, which we haven't developed as yet.

My contention is that  everything can be explained and has a reason(cause and effect) behind it. So when we say  handing over to god's will we are handing over to our intutive self or higher self and dropping our self will, conscious/rational mind. Higher self is spontaeous, it does not require rational thiking or decision making.

my two cents

Baljit

[lavender orchid]

what is apparent today, is that with sufficient awareness all explanatory efforts could be given up again in favor of just living, as our ancestors must have done.

of course this is as revolutionary as it sounds simplistic. just an opinon and another belief.

 

[Lori Anne]

what is apparent today, is that with sufficient awareness all explanatory efforts could be given up again in favor of just living, as our ancestors must have done.

of course this is as revolutionary as it sounds simplistic. just an opinon and another belief.

 

Yes! 

[Lori Anne]

what is apparent today, is that with sufficient awareness all explanatory efforts could be given up again in favor of just living, as our ancestors must have done.

of course this is as revolutionary as it sounds simplistic.

 

Yes! 

[lavender orchid]

 

[lightsun]

“If something does not make sense on the surface, there is an unconscious reason. We are a rational-irrational species. We have the gift of logic, and reason. But too many times are reasoning is circumvented by our emotions & feelings. Yet we need feelings to connect to others & have interpersonal relationships. It is finding the mixture and balance between the two.” LightSun